So 9 days ago I met up with my personal friend Tony, to do something that we love best: go to the movies. For those of you that don’t know, I am back in the United States. The whole internship with my uncle didn’t work out. It’s a long story, and I really I don’t want to try and explain it. Anyways, being back in the exciting state of New Jersey (notice my sarcasm), all I wanted to do was visit my shitty, run-down AMC theater to view some over-priced movies and eat some $15 dollar popcorn.
Well, it was a triple-feature for Tony and me. And I swear… Tony and I are the only two people I know that will go to the movies for 6 hours, spend over $20 on movies, and another $15 on stuff that we just shat out of our asses a couple hours later. The movies on the agenda were Get Smart, The Love Guru, and the one, the only, Wall-E.
Now if you don’t recall, last week Tony posted his review of Wall-E on the site, calling it “the most romantic film since Casablanca” and “his favorite film of all time”. Of course, I got myself into some shit, because I just don’t know how to keep my mouth shut. I commented on his review, and it turned into a full-fledged debate. For those of you that don’t know, Tony is a personal friend of mine, and we are famous for our debates. We do them quite often, and they usually end up turning our quite interesting. Here is the debate we had on the comment log of his Wall-E review:
Randy // June 29, 2008 2:39 PM
Alright... I have to comment. Tony, you are getting carried away. Your favorite film of all time??? Are you kidding me??? It's an animated children's film! The most romantic movie since Casablanca??? What??? They're animated robots!!! Come on... Are you serious?
I did not like this movie. Its targeted audience was children, and like you said, the plot was very complicated. There is no way in hell that my 5-year old cousin could have realized all the things you pointed out in your review. All of this "deeper meaning"... Ask a 5-year old what “Wall-E” was about and he’ll tell you it’s about a robot. Not a love story.. not the devastation of earth.
God... I am really pissed by this movie... and by your review. People should go to these animated films for fun. To relax. For some fiction. Not to analyze them... and turn them into the best film of all time. Come on… There is no way in hell that this is the best movie of all time... and I cannot see how this could be your favorite.
Tony, I have lost all respect for you.
TonyD // June 29, 2008 2:59 PM
There is a difference between a children’s film, and a family film. A children’s film would be that “Veggietales” movie that came out this year, because only children and people who wear helmets can watch that movie. A family flick would be “Speed Racer,” “Kung Fu Panda,” and, yes, “Wall-E.”
It is the most romantic film since “Casablanca” because we can actually fall in love with these characters. Every romantic comedy that came out this year had at least one despicable character – “27 Dresses” had that Ackerman girl, “Over Her Dead Body” had Eva Longoria, and “Fool’s Gold” had the entire cast. Where in “Wall-E” is there a despicable character? The title character is so easily recognizable with the audience because he just wants the same thing that everyone else wants. The characters in those movies? They only want greed and hell. It doesn’t sound the least bit romantic to me.
The target audience was NOT for children. It was for families WITH children. Andrew Stanton once said that he never gave a shit what the audience thought while putting his thoughts into “Toy Story,” and “Finding Nemo.” “Ratatouille” had enough for everyone to like about it. Kids will love “Remy the Rat” and “Linguini” and adults will love “Anton Ego”. With “Wall-E,” most young kids want to see “Wall-E” and “Eve” save the day. Older adults want to see that, and they want to see some great sci-fi references. I dare you to go back again and point out all of the obvious references to “2001: A Space Odyssey,” “Star Wars,” “E.T.,” and the other Pixar flicks.
Oh, and if your 5 year old cousin can realize everything that I mentioned in my review, the kid must be smarter than you.
And yes, “Wall-E” is a love story. It has so many layers to it that saving the world is just a subplot when it comes to “Wall-E” and “Eve” spending time together. This world has gone to shit. We rely on the internet and technology so much nowadays that “Wall-E” spends time to display the negatives of it. Why get exercise when you can sit down on a chair that floats and takes you to places?
And if you honestly think that “Wall-E” isn’t one of the best films of all-time, you must have no taste in film. I never do say this unless if a time like that has to come around, but how in the hell can you like “Horton Hears A Who?” and “The Bucket List” but not “Wall-E?”
Randy // June 29, 2008 3:18 PM
Despite this being a "family film".. It is still targeted at young audiences. Older people only see these movies because they take their kids. Older people don't see these films on their own for their own pleasure... they would much rather prefer "Get Smart" or “Sex and the City” in a heartbeat. Let's face it... Pixar is known for their animated children's films. The only time adults go to these films is when they're with children. Except for, of course... you.
Now you mention that you can fall in love with these characters. Are you kidding me? They're robots... They are FAKE emotions... animated. The purpose of this film was not a love story. Children at that age do not understand love. This is not "Casablanca"... This is "Toy Story".
The purpose of this film was to give kids a chance to come out and see a neat animated robot, like you said, save the day. A film that even kids can understand. And yet... Pixar failed in even doing that much. I'm sorry to say... but the plot of this film is FAR too much advanced for its targeted audience.
What you said about how all we, as Americans, do is sit on the Internet... and watch TV and use up Earth's resources... as trash builds up and the Earth is pretty much going to shit...
Yes. I got that. YOU got that. However... we're adults!!! Wake up! Of course we realize what is going on... but like i said before, my five-year old cousin DOESN'T UNDERSTAND. HE JUST THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT A ROBOT NAMED WALL-E!!! Little kids do not realize plots and subplots… They don’t understand that this film is about saving the Earth… or about love. Tell a child this was a love story they will look at you like you're nuts. Ask them why everyone was forced onto a ship and why they're all obese and they will look at you like you're nuts. They simply do not understand.
You mention that I liked "The Bucket List" and "Horton Hears A Who". Horton only got 2 stars from me, which, last time I checked, isn’t a good rating. “The Bucket List” got 3 from me, because yes, I liked it. But, that isn't an animated film. If anything, that film was aimed at an older audience.
I did not review Wall-E. So you cannot compare my thoughts on it to previous films I have reviewed. However, if I were to review Wall-E, I would give it 2 stars (out of a possible 4). Because... I as an adult... liked the movie. JUST THE MOVIE ITSELF. I, as an adult, liked “Wall-E”. However, the thing that is getting me, the thing holding it back, and why it is only getting 2 stars from me... is because it is way too complicated for little kids. They just don’t understand what happened. At least in “Horton Hears a Who” they know who Horton is, and what he is doing.
I honestly cannot believe that you like an animated, children's (family, whatever) film as your best film of 2008. And more so... of ALL TIME?
I'm sorry. But everyone has their own opinion. Don't judge my taste in film. People like different things. I have taste in film... it just may not be the same as yours. So don’t say I don’t have any taste in film.
And no. This IS NOT my favorite movie of the year. And this IS NOT my favorite movie of all time. And I DO NOT think that this is one of the most romantic love stories of all time. In my opinion to think any of these things is absurd.
TonyD // June 29, 2008 3:52 PM
Yes, but you don’t seem to get this – it is NOT intended for young audiences. It’s intended for FAMILIES. Older people take their kids to go see this movie not only for the kids, but for themselves also. Out of all the summer blockbusters, only three really delivered this year – “Iron Man,” “Kung Fu Panda,” and “Wall-E.” Older people go see films like “Get Smart” because they grew up with the television show, but didn’t they grow up with children films too? There was a thing called children’s films back in the 1950s too, you know.
Pixar isn’t known for their animated children’s films. Before they even made full features, they made only short films. Go back to their new DVD and watch the short film collection (yes, Randy, you can rent it at WOW). These were all made before they started to make full features, and their short films were intended for no one but people who were able to appreciate art. Even back then, kids didn’t understand half of the stuff that went on. They watched those short films to look at the funny faces that some of these characters did… which they still do now. Their new short film “Presto” is a perfect example of that.
The only time adults go to these films are only when they lug their children, huh? What explains you, me, and the 141 critics that went to go see it before it was released?
You can’t fall in love with robots, but yet, you can fall in love with an iron suit, a rat, or even a talking toy?! Isn’t the point of “Wall-E” to meet two robots that have personalities like a regular human being? And if kids don’t understand love yet, why are mommy and daddy still together?
It’s hypocritical of you to say how the film is far too advanced, but if kids can say that the film is about a robot after watching it, do you think it’s too advanced THEN? Pixar has always been the thinking man’s animation studio. “Ratatouille” examined rats in the kitchen and the art of criticism, but do you think kids understood that? And “A Bug’s Life” was about the diet cycle, but do you think kids understood that? You say that the problem with “Wall-E” is not that it is complex, but it has all sorts of messages too. Why should “Wall-E” not have a message about friendship, but “Monsters, Inc.” and “Finding Nemo” can?
And if we supposedly realized the problems with technology, don’t you think that we would do something about it instead of keep using it the way it is? Your five year old cousin doesn’t understand it because no one will explain it to him. Your cousin won’t understand a film like “An Inconvenient Truth,” so Pixar explains it in the nicest way possible, the same way “Arctic Tale,” “March of the Penguins,” and “Horton Hears A Who” has done – the earth is fucked, but if we pull together, we can do something about it.
Tell a child that it is a love story and they will look at you like you’re nuts? Dude, don’t you understand that it IS A LOVE STORY? Wall-E and Eve LOVE EACH OTHER. Kids understand that, you understand that, and I understand that. That is the main point of the film and that is the best part of the film. If you honestly think that the film isn’t about Wall-E and Eve’s relationship, did you watch the same movie I did? You sat right next to me!
You don’t have to review “Wall-E” if you are breaking down your thoughts here. If you look at “Horton Hears A Who” in an older person’s perspective, can’t you look at “Wall-E” in an older person’s perspective? You say that you liked “Wall-E,” but you give it two stars out of four because you think that it is too complicated for kids. You can say that if you are a kid, but if you are an adult, you can’t give it two stars and say that it is too complicated for a kid. Do you think that all of the great critics like “Wall-E” but give it a bad review because kids can’t understand it?
You came over my house last month and we watched “The Mist.” It supported no hope FOR our planet and you loved it. But you watch “Wall-E” and don’t like it because it supported just a little bit of hope left?
Your argument is that Pixar’s films are only about the children. So you expect that adults to go to the films to gut their eyeballs out by watching it? No, Pixar wants to give something to both audiences. They always have, and they always will do so. As long as adults keep seeing these movies, there will be things for them and children. Like it or not, you’re wrong. I might have criticized your taste and you told me not to judge yours, but what are you doing to everyone else’s taste?
Randy // June 29, 2008 4:10 PM
Alright. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said I hated “Wall-E” because there is hope for the planet in there. Hell, I didn't even say I hated “Wall-E”! Let alone for you to imply that I don't like the planet.
In a nutshell, all I am trying to say is that they could have done a better job making the film more... "child-friendly". Kids want to go to these films so they can understand them on their own, without having to have adults to explain it to them. Hell, if my cousin wanted to see a film, only to have it explained to him, I would show him "An Inconvenient Truth" and explain it to him. But FYI, there are ways to send messages to children, in ways that they can understand. You mentioned a film by the title of "Monsters, Inc." What did that teach? Kindness and friendship. Clearly. And it taught the lessons through example. Sully and Mike, monsters, demonstrated kindness and friendship by looking after Boo, and trying to get her back to her home, despite what all the other monsters thought of humans. Children got that. And I didn’t have to explain that one to my little cousin.
The point is this: I have clearly stated my opinion. You have stated yours. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions. I would not say it is the best film of the year. I would not say that is is "fucking brilliant". It is most definitely not my favorite of all time. Hell, it's not even my favorite ANIMATED film of all time. I think if it really wanted to teach the message of preserving Earth... then it could have done it in a better way that children could understand.
I am not denying that there was a subplot about love. Of course there fucking was!!! However, I think it is a little... fucked up to say that this animated... children's family movie is the most romantic film since Casablanca... that the emotions of the robot touched you... come on... it's fake, completely animated! No, you DON’T FALL IN LOVE WITH TALKING TOYS OR A RAT, LET ALONE A FUCKING ROBOT!
Neither one of us has any right to judge each other's taste in film... However, after reading your opinion of “Wall-E”, I must say I have lost a great deal of respect for you.
TonyD // June 29, 2008 4:29 PM
What I said was not to put words in your mouth, but to continue my argument. You said that everyone knows about the world going to shit, but you never said about ways that we can fix it. “The Mist” was to show how we can survive the world going to shit, whereas “Wall-E” is how we can fix it. “Wall-E” said it best to join together and help fix the Earth so future generations can live again. “An Inconvenient Truth” said it so scientifically that no wonder that a kid wouldn’t understand it. And I never said you hated “Wall-E” and that you didn’t like the planet.
The film is as child friendly as any Pixar film could possibly be, but there has to be ways to get the adults interested. By presenting a problem and offering a solution to the problem, it will make ways so that adults are more cautious. A kid can’t understand that we have to fix the Earth? I don’t think “Monsters, Inc.” is about kindness as much as it is about friendship, but to each of their own.
How can you think that it is fucked up to say that “Wall-E” is the most romantic film since “Casablanca?” I said it before and I’ll say it again – all of the characters here are LIKEABLE. You haven’t even SEEN “Casablanca.” So yes, “Wall-E” is the most romantic film since “Casablanca,” and if not that, then “Gone With the Wind.” It doesn’t matter if it is computer animated or not. Love is love, and if a cynical man like I can say it, you can too.
You can lose as much respect as you possibly can. I don’t give any rat’s ass if anyone does, but I hate it when someone can criticize how wrong my opinion is without backing up any facts. I got a few out of you, but truly, you know you like it, and each time you post a comment, it shows that you like it more and more.
Randy // June 29, 2008 5:31 PM
I did not criticize your opinion. Was I not the one who said that we shouldn't criticize each other's opinion? Read above. And if I'm not correct... I already said that I liked Wall-E!!! Read above. I said it.
So your point is moot. I did not “criticize how wrong your opinion was”. I simply disagreed with it. And dude, check back. I presented man, many facts to support my opinion.
Yes, a kid can understand that we have to fix the Earth. However, I don't think that children can understand that “Wall-E” was about the fact that we have to fix the Earth. They don't relate the two.
I may have not seen “Casablanca”. However, it is famous for it being a romance film. I may have to go and rent it tonight now. However, my point is this:
I FIND IT VERY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU FIND A CARTOON ROMANTIC. Actually, no… I lied. Because guess what. “Lady and the Tramp” is a romantic cartoon. I don’t find it hard to believe that you found a cartoon romantic. Cartoons can be romantic. I find it hard to believe that you find a cartoon, “Wall-E”, as romantic as “Casablanca”. “Casablanca” has characters that are real people. It is famous s for being romantic.
I'm sorry. Yes, I did lose some respect for calling it your favorite of all time. If you had said favorite animated of all time, then this conversation wouldn't exist. However, I find it hard to believe that it is your favorite of all time.
I did not criticize your opinion. I simply said I lost respect for you. Read above. And I did say I liked “Wall-E” from an adult’s perspective. The only bad in it is that I think that they could have done a better job "teaching a lesson" to the youngsters.
Regardless, great review. Even though I disagree with your opinion greatly, you stated your opinion well, with many facts. Kudos for that.
TonyD // June 29, 2008 9:42 PM
Read your first two three comments. Yes, you did criticize my opinion and called it absurd. And yeah, I know you said that you liked “Wall-E,” but you can’t give it two stars and say that you liked it. You gave the same score to “Horton.” Care to elaborate?
Oh, and it is my favorite animated film of all time too, if you wanted to know it that far.
If “Wall-E” can’t teach a kid to do something about the earth, and if they are too young to understand everything that went on in “Inconvenient Truth,” what can a kid find out about the Earth and how to save it?
Oh, and as far as Pixar's true intentions with their films, watch "The Pixar Story" on Starz.
Oh, and one more thing - rent “Casablanca”, watch it, and then go see Wall-E with me once more before it leaves theaters. Then compare how romantic the films are. I can guarantee you that you will think the same thing.
Randy // June 30, 2008 8:26 AM
Yes, I’ll elaborate. 2 stars – I liked “Wall-E”. I didn’t love it. I liked it. And I already explained why I knocked off two stars. Because it was complicated. I think I am being harsh.. because whether or not children understand every single subplot… they still loved the movie. So kids liked it… adults liked it… and yet I gave it two stars. Am I being harsh? Maybe. When I review films, I give it a rating last. So maybe if I had reviewed this film, my rating would have been a little different. However, I felt that the film should only get 2 stars because of the complicated plots.
We just have to remember: Opinions are opinions. There is no right or wrong opinion. And everyone is entitled to theirs.
Thanks for the debate, Tony! It has been fun! I look forward to the next one! =)
So there you have it. Me, running my big mouth. And I got myself into some serious shit this time. Because 2 days later “Wall-E” was number 9 on IMDB’s Top Films of All Time. And of course, Tony had to call me, and rub it in my face. He just had to take that damn picture with his cell phone and send it to me, and post it on FilmArcade for all to see. (Bastard). And the day after that… it was number 6. Go figure.
So I went back and spent another $7 on “Wall-E”. (Jesus…) And I saw it again. I also took Tony’s advice and watched “Casablanca”. And goddammit.. I knew right away that I better start backpedaling or I was going to be the ass of FilmArcade.net for a long time.
So here’s what I have to say. I liked “Wall-E” a lot better a second time than I did originally. I wouldn’t give it 2 stars… rather my new rating would be somewhere between 3 and 3 ½.
I got a lot more emotion out of the film a second time. I saw some of the things that Tony and I pointed out in a different perspective.
So now there’s the question: What happened the first time? And I think I have a theory to that. As I mentioned before, Tony and I saw three movies that day: Get Smart, The Love Guru, and Wall-E, with Wall-E being last on our list. Get Smart was good. I enjoyed it a lot. It was funny. Now the thing that went wrong was The Love Guru. I went into it expecting it to be good. I was looking forward to seeing it. I thought it would be funny. And it was! But… it was stupid. It was like an Adam Sandler film. I was pissed. I was extremely disappointed with it.
So going into Wall-E I was in a bad mood. The Love Guru disappointed me, I had no more money for popcorn, this guy that I call “Popcorn Boy” pissed me off, and Tony wouldn’t give me his free soda coupon. So throughout the whole film, I had a negative outlook on “Wall-E”.
The second time through, I liked “Wall-E” a lot more. It was a lot less confusing than I thought, and I felt the movie was a lot cuter. It was a happy film, and honestly, I felt happy at the end. Now, the conclusion. “Wall-E” isn’t my favorite movie of all time. It doesn’t get 4 stars from me. It also isn’t my favorite animated film of all time. (Sorry, but I’m a “Toy Story” buff). However, it is up there. It was a good movie. Good for children, and good for me. I would definitely say it is my second favorite animated film of all time. One more point: I saw “Casablanca”. And even though these robots export a great deal of emotion, I find it hard to compare “Wall-E” and “Casablanca”. Yes, “Wall-E” is obviously a love story. I recognize that it is about love. However, it is probably just me, but I can’t take this animated film seriously, and call it romantic, like I can say about “Casablanca”. I see a love story, but I don’t see the most romantic film of all time.
So that’s it! Hey Tony, can I ask a favor?
REMIND ME TO KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT THE NEXT TIME I HAVE A BUG UP MY ASS ABOUT SOMETHING. THANKS.
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